一直以來，ICC瓷磚在中國建陶行業的地位都非常特殊。這不僅僅是因為它是一家由北美陶瓷企業投資運營的公司，還因為它的掌舵人，ICC瓷磚總經理漢貝托（Humberto Valles），一位有著36年國際建材經驗，具備全球視野以及前瞻思維的陶瓷人連續8年為中國建陶行業發布國際瓷磚趨勢報告。漢貝托的國際瓷磚趨勢報告專業、系統、全面、深度，不僅成為陶瓷行業產品研發的參考，更是推動中國陶瓷行業與國際趨勢接軌，助力中國陶瓷行業的國際化進程。

今年，是ICC瓷磚在中國走過的十二個年頭。ICC瓷磚與漢貝托當初為何緣起中國？漢貝托又是基于何種原因愿意把他的國際瓷磚趨勢報告與整個建陶行業分享？漢貝托剛剛從歐洲、美國、墨西哥調研回國，這一趟旅程他又有了哪些新的發現？對于明年的行業趨勢他又有哪些預判？

帶著系列問題，陶瓷資訊首席運營官喻月明與中國陶瓷總部攜手專訪了ICC瓷磚總經理漢貝托。

△陶瓷資訊首席運營官喻月明（左）、ICC瓷磚總經理漢貝托（右）

以下為訪談實錄（英文為漢貝托原話，中文翻譯參照）：

01.

保持折騰 保持奮進

喻月明

ICC上周慶祝了12歲生日，剛剛逛展廳的時候我也看到了您傾注的心血。看得出來您已經把中國當作您的第二故鄉了。為什么當初ICC選擇了中國？

YU: I know that ICC just celebrated its 12th birthday last week. I also saw your effort when I just visited the showroom, you treat China as your second home. Why did ICC select China?

漢貝托：我將完整的講述這段緣由，如果長話短說的話大家可能會很難理解。我們是制造商，在墨西哥和美國都有生產基地和市場運營。當時，我負責集團在墨西哥與美國市場的所有外購產品，包括陶瓷、石材以及衛生潔具等。

Humberto: I'm going to try to tell you the whole story, because it’s very difficult to cut it short. We are manufacturers, we were operating in two countries, we were operating in Mexico and USA, we have a very big operation in both countries. At that moment of my career, I was in charge of the corporate outsourcing for Mexico and USA. Outsourcing and purchasing of all the finished goods that we did not manufacture, ceramic, stone or sanitaryware, anything we did not produce, or we did not want to produce.

我們發展得非常迅猛，每個月采購一度高達80萬平方米 (大約800個集裝箱)。它們從意大利、西班牙、巴西、哥倫比亞、土耳其、印度等國進口，那個時候我們從未在中國采購過。任何公司、行業、經濟體或國家的發展進程中，都會有不同的發展周期。我們發展得越來越好，因此我們決定開新的工廠。這是當時墨西哥最現代化的生產基地，擁有意大利設備。

當新工廠建成后，我們產品的生產品類開始增加，而進口產品的數量則大幅度減少。因此，我的工作量迅速減少，我有了比較富余的時間。利用這個空檔期，我開啟了全球的調研，在其他國家尋找新的機遇。

Everything was working very well, actually we were moving at one point in time about 800,000 square meters (about 800 containers) per month. From Italy, Spain, Brazil, from Colombia, Turkey, India just to name a few, but nothing from China. The life of any company, any industry, economy, or country, goes through different cycles. What happened was that everything was working very well for us, our company was making good money and we decided to open new manufacturing facilities. The most modern factory at that time with Italian equipment in Mexico and the department of outsourcing that I was in charge of suddenly because the company had a new manufacturing facility and the company obviously preferred to manufacture the product instead of importing so my workload was reduced significantly. So, I used my spare time to keep travelling, and understanding the opportunities, that the world had to offer.

我第一次抵達中國是在2002年。在來到中國前我從未想過會在這里發現機會，因為人們總是告訴我關于中國的負面信息。

At that moment, I landed in China for the first time, which was in 2002. When I arrived in China, I was not expecting to see what I saw when I arrived to Shanghai. People told me so many stories that were hard to believe, especially the ones that have never been to China but the ones that have been to China said many positive things about the country.

但當我來到這里幾周后，我看到了機會并預見了這個國家未來的發展前景。對我們公司而言，未來能在中國發展至關重要，我們將獲得一個前所未有的市場及成就。

But when I arrived, I saw the opportunity and the future. I didn’t take me very long after I went back to USA to say: I believe this is going to be the future. For our company, China is going to represent an important thing, business wise, sales wise and so on.

最初，我只在中國進口瓷磚，然后賣給墨西哥和美國。相較其他國家而言，中國瓷磚的價格低廉，具備競爭優勢，通過出口我們可以在墨西哥和美國市場獲得巨大成功。

But at that moment, I just was trying to find good tiles in China to meet our standards, found them at low prices and sell them to Mexican and USA. After we found the right tiles polished that had a very low priced, we are able to earn lots of money in Mexican and USA markets they were extremely profitable products for us.

最初我們在中國還未設立辦事處，但由于業務增長迅猛，所以總部決定在中國設立分公司。因此，2006年我搬到中國并設立了分公司。幾年之后，我們的增長繼續攀升，達到了一個又一個的頂峰，我們做了一個正確的決定。

But at that moment we did not have office in China and I was travelling back and fort, but the import quantity was increasing exponentially and our business demanded presence and set an office here to check quality, find new opportunities, know better the market. So, In 2006, I moved to China and set the office. And after just a couple of years, our growth was the highest, exponential proving that that we made a right decision.

在運營的過程中，我發現了很多新的機會。例如，我們不僅可以把中國瓷磚銷往墨西哥和美國，甚至可以把它們銷往全球。我們過去在國際市場有足夠的經驗以及資源，可以把這些寶貴的經驗和資源整合起來在中國發展。不是公司派我來的，是我派自己來的，我們通過在中國的駐點，迅速轉型，現在中國的兩個公司有150多名員工，業務規模相當大。

I saw lots of opportunities at that time. For example, one of the opportunities is that we not only sell the tiles in Mexican and USA, but also in anywhere else in the world that was one option, but I also made a study of the possibility of using our experience in the international market to start distribution and sales in China, reproducing Interceramic’s successful distribution network and platform.

The company did not send me here, I moved here and in this way we transformed because of our presence in China very rapidly and now have between the two office in China more than 150 people and a pretty big business in the country. 

喻月明

從你的故事中我學到不論是在舒適區還是困境我們都要不停折騰。那時候，大多數人只想著把瓷磚出口到海外，很少有人像你想得這么全面。

YU：From your story I have learn that we need keep moving and think about the future, no matter that we are in comfort zone or not. At that time, most people were only thinking about export tiles overseas, less of them done the job like you.

漢貝托：我們應該是首家這樣經營的公司，許多同行做不到這一點。因為它需要國際化管理，需要長久駐點在中國，更重要的是，我們需要全面打開我們的感官去觀察、感受、思考這個行業以及世界。這也是我們要在中國設立其他版塊的原因，比如我們的衛浴版塊就非常成功，增長非常迅猛。如果不是因為我切身實地來到了中國，這些成績是不可能實現的。

Humberto：Many companies tried to do this before but they did not have success and the right approach. We were for sure the first company that did this. Many other companies could not do this. Because it demands presence and international management and living permanently in China. It was important to be here and open our eyes, ears and mindset to see other things we could do besides only purchasing tiles. That’s why we were able to open distribution in China and many other divisions of the company like right now. One of the divisions that is very successful is sanitaryware. Sanitaryware is growing rapidly, exponentially right now for us, but those things cannot happen unless you are right here.

大多數人會說來搬到中國并進行經營是一個巨大的挑戰。當然，這是一個很大的挑戰，但我們絕對不可能坐鎮墨西哥就能決策于千里之外。

Most people would say that it should have been a big challenge moving to China. And off course it was a big challenge, but it was absolutely impossible that we could have done this managing it form long distance.

喻月明

很多人只是把這項事業當作一種貿易，但你卻表現出不一樣的熱情和激情，奮力工作，努力讓公司變得更好。

Yu: Lots of people treat this business just as a trade, but you are different, you show enthusiasm and passion, work hard and make efforts to make company better.

02.

辦企業不是百米沖刺

需要全身心投入

漢貝托：你說得很對，你需要全身心投入到這項事業中來。如果公司經常更換管理層是行不通的。我常說，辦企業不是百米沖刺，而是堅持長期主義的馬拉松。

Humberto: You are absolutely right, you need commitment in this business. If our company change management in few years and send other people to be in charge, it is not going to work. I always knew and say that this was going to take 10 years or more 15, 20 or until I retire. I always said that this was not like running a sprint of 100meters, it was going to be 42 kilometers marathon.

喻月明

辦企業是跑馬拉松也是我們近年來不斷在宣揚的理念。ICC從一家北美陶瓷企業發展到一家國際型的陶瓷企業，您認為有哪些關鍵因素？

Yu: Running a business is running a marathon, which is also the spirit we have been advocating in recent years. What are the key points that ICC developed from a North American ceramic brand to a global ceramic brand? 

漢貝托：我們在20年前就開始經營瓷磚業務，而ICC成立至今只有12年。當我第一次來到中國的時候我就發現中國是一個完美的平臺。通過在中國的深耕與發展，我們的公司將從墨西哥和北美的公司轉變為一個國際公司。因為這里的市場、制造商可以到達北美或墨西哥無法企及的程度。

Humberto: An important thing to mention is that very early in this whole process that started twenty years ago, keep in mind also that ICC has only twelve years of the 20. But in the first 4-5 years I saw at that time that China was the perfect platform to help transform our company from Mexican and North American company to an international world company. Because the operation and manufacturing here in Foshan could reach markets that we can't in North America or Mexican.

說實話，我們主動在世界市場上競爭也是一個巨大的挑戰。98%的人不會這么做，因為這太冒險也太困難了。

Honestly it was also in another way a big challenge that we push ourselves to compete in the world market, also in the most difficult, the biggest, the most competitors of all kinds from the lowest end to the highest end, but we thought that we could do something here using our experience. But 98% people would not do this. Because they are going to say it is too risky and too difficult.

風險和難度越大就意味著競爭壁壘越高。我們是第一家在正確的時間這樣布局的公司。取得今天的成績我們非常自豪，因為我們把國際化的理念帶給了市場。那個時候，我們看到了利基市場，并爭取到這個窗口期把公司運作得很好。

I always say, yes, it is true, but if it is riskier and more difficult it also means that there is less competition. We were the first one and do it right the first time. It was also a matter of pride and confidence, because we could bring this international wisdom we had in North America to the market that needed a different kind of player. At that moment, we saw the niche in the market to have a brand and perform and do the things we were doing very well and reproduce them in this market. 

喻月明

在一開始，你們就已經設定了國際品牌的目標。

Yu：At the beginning you already set the target to transform to an international brand.

漢貝托：是的，主要目標是我們需要把ICC打造成一家國際化公司。我們在國際市場上有豐富的經驗和優質的資源，我們是薩克米、卡羅比亞等意大利供應商的頭部客戶之一，我們把豐富的資源和經驗用在在中國，這使我們大獲成功。當然，在中國成立ICC品牌前我們做了充分的調研和分析。調研和分析的結果顯示，在中國運營我們的業務非常合適。

Humberto: Yes, absolutely that was the target. We needed to introduce ICC as an international company with lots of experience in North America and the most demanding markets in the world with excellent relationships with European manufacturers, because we were excellent customers of Sacmi, Kerajet, Colorobbia, Esmalglass and so on, so I thought that we can use our resources, experience and wisdom to do business in China. Obliviously, we have done a financial analysis and check with different people. based on the feedback, it is feasible to running our business in China.

現在ICC在中國已經走過12個年頭了，時間證明我們的決定是對的。即便市場不會再像2004年到2007年那樣好，工業和經濟進入不同的周期，我們將進入非常困難的時期。但未來行業一旦復蘇并朝著正確的方向發展，我們仍舊可以取得所期待的成績。

Now we have been here more than 12 years and it proved we were right. The market is not going to be as good as it was in 2004 to 2007 because if it was like those years all of the last 12 who knows how big we could have been by now. The industry and economy is going through different cycles, now we are going through a very difficult time. But once if it recovers and it is going a right direction, we are ready to grow to the seize that we all believe we can be as a company in this market.  

喻月明

不管市場有多糟糕，我們只要堅持做自己就行了。

Yu: It does not matter how bad the market is, we just keep doing our thing.

漢貝托：是的，我們將在中國傾盡全力。我們相信我們設定的戰略，雖然這可能需要幾年時間才能實現。我們已經做好了長期艱苦奮戰的準備。

Humberto: Yes, we will do whatever it takes because we are committed to this market. We believe in our strategy. We understand it may take more years to realize it. We are ready to keep doing the hard work and stay here as long as necessary.

喻月明

從交談中我看到你不僅僅是把中國的瓷磚銷往墨西哥和美國，更是在傳遞知識、智慧和文化。

Yu: From this conversation, I saw that you are only transfer the tiles between China and Mexican and USA, but also knowledge, wisdom and culture.

漢貝托：對員工而言我可能給不了他們最佳答案，他們需要學習的東西不一定從我這里學到，但至少我給他們提供了良好的環境和氛圍，他們可以向其他國家的專家或同行學習。這就是在ICC工作不同于在其他公司工作的地方。

Humberto: I am probably not the right person to give you the best answer, they could probably give you a better answer everything they have learned has not been necessarily from me, but if it wasn’t me at least I put them in the right place. So, they are good to learn from the experts or the people from other countries like Italian experts. That is why I said that working in ICC is different than working in most other companies. It is a very different platform.

喻月明

對在ICC工作的員工而言這是非常特別的工作經歷。

Yu: It's a very special work experience for them.

漢貝托：有一次我聽到從我們這里出去的同事在其他公司面試后很快被錄取了，我感到非常高興。在平常我也很愿意贊賞他們，如果他們工作做的足夠優秀的話。但有些老板似乎不太愿意表揚自己的員工。

Humberto: It makes me happy to hear things like people from ICC getting job interviews from other companies, and they hire them with almost no questions and short interviews just because they come from ICC. It is very important to have a good working environment, promote the culture of the company. I praise them when they do a good job, but it seems very hard for other bosses to do. They have direct and very easy access to me every day.

喻月明

是的，尤其是對中國老板而言，讓他們表揚自己的員工并不容易。你們為什么把展廳設在中國陶瓷總部?中國陶瓷總部給過ICC怎樣的賦能?

Yu: Yes, especially for the Chinese boss, it not easy to make them praise their employees. Why did you set the showroom in CCIH? What kind of assistance have CCIH gave to you?

漢貝托：有很多東西我要向本地人學習，他們知道的知識比我多。我們之所以要開設展廳是因為那個時期恰逢其時。但是說實話，可選擇的地理位置并不是很多，只有中國陶瓷城，季華路以及中國陶瓷總部。

Humberto: There are lots of things that I had to learn from the local people and many ways knew things better than me. Like I asked: Where should we open the corporate showroom? They told me it had to be either somewhere in Jihua Lu between CCIH and CCC or right at the heart of CCIH.

我沒有花很長的時間來做決定，因為中國陶瓷總部更適合做展廳，因此從一開始我就表示，這里只做展廳，辦公室另尋別處。

This thing didn’t take very long to decide, because when we moved here we have never thought about opening a showroom and at the same place the office. I said this will be a showroom only. This space here was design to be a showroom, and not an office and we move our office to a building that more suitable be an office for us. They told me: boss, we need set our showroom in CCIH, that is the best place for us.

中國陶瓷總部占地面積很大，其實一開始我們是想在季華路邊上找一個展廳的，但是它們的租期起碼有10年，原租戶也不會離開。即使有租期足夠的展廳，面積又往往不合適。

CCIH is a big area. At the beginning we decided to set the showroom ideally on Jihua Road at CCIH area, but they told me to forget about this, because the lease of all the showrooms there is at least 10 years and the old brands are not going to move from there and it will be impossible to get a space there. Even we get the lease there, but maybe the size is not suitable for us, either too big or too small.

一個偶然的機會我們發現了這座展廳，這座展廳地理位置很好，但我仍舊需要考慮建筑條件。所以我又找了一家建筑公司來幫忙檢查，比如天花板以及層高等等。當移除舊掉天花板后我們驚喜得發現這個展廳層高達4.75米。這樣的層高非常適合展廳的建設，所以我們最終決定來這里。

And then we found this one by chance, this location was perfect, right in the heart of CCIH but I need consider about the construction conditions which did not look good. So, I came back again with a construction company to check what I could not see, the ceilings, height and everything else. It was a big surprise that we started to remove the ceiling that was very low, and we found that this showroom had 4.75 meters height. I think is gonna to work, so we decided to committing to CCIH.

在那之后，我們遇到了一個新的挑戰，那就是要讓展廳脫穎而出，我們必須要設計一個吸引人的外立面。最終我們完成了這項挑戰，在七年前，我們的外立面就運用了金屬結構和大屏幕，這是行業的首創。

After that, we had a new challenge that is if we are going to move to CCIH and make the right impression, we need to make our showroom stand out and our goal was to make the best external facade. I think we achieved our goal, we did the metallic structure and installed a big LED screen outside seven years ago, it was a first for the industry.

我們一直致力于設計最好的，在市場上絕無僅有的產品，比如當時的現代仿古磚。我們的展示非常西化，大部分瓷磚都是啞光磚，同時，瓷磚鋪貼以及組合非常獨特。這座展廳的落成意味著ICC達到了一個新高度。因此，相較其他地理位置而言，中國陶瓷總部給了我們一個很棒的平臺，絕佳的地理位置以及適合的展廳面積。

We were always committed to be the best and bring the things you have never see it before, like the modern rustic ceramics. The way we did is super western, most of the tiles were not polished. The tiles application way was very particular. It helped ICC move to another level. So, compare with other locations, CCIH gave us a great platform, perfect location and good size.

展廳的落地是我們發展進程中又一項正確的決策，后來當我們把博物館和畫廊概念應用到展廳，許多公司開始效仿我們。

once we settled down this showroom, we found we made another right decision. Later and just last year we finished remodeling the second floor of the showroom and transformed it into a museum gallery concept, I believe it worked very well because many other companies started to following us and doing galleries as well. So it is important to know that people like the things that we do.

如果你想獲得成功你就必須保持與眾不同。如果一家公司只生產同質化的產品，那么這家公司是不會長久存在的。現在我們的展廳幾乎每兩年會進行一次大的翻新。明年我們將會對一樓進行大改造，以保持對經銷商、設計師以及陶瓷行業的吸引力。

If you want to be successful, you must do the different kind of things in this market. If our company just make ordinary and basic stuff, this company is not going to last a long time. Now our showroom gets a major renovation every two years. I believe next year we are going to transform the first floor to always keep it attractive for our distributors, potential distributors, designers, industry and so on.

03.

行業有未來

品牌才會有未來

喻月明

你看起來總是能夠預見未來，我注意到你們展廳里的瓷磚有很多出現在今年的博洛尼亞展上。

Yu: You seems like you can always expect the future, the tiles in your showroom we can see the similar one in CERSAIE this year.

漢貝托：我告訴我們的同事我是穿越回來的，我去到未來然告訴他們下一步的布局。這次我將把我的預測寫在紙上，明年年底我們可以來共同驗證。

Humberto: I tell our co-workers, employees are that I have live in the future, and then come back to the present, and tell you what we need to do. I am going to write this on paper this time, and you can check it at the end of the next year to see if I was right. At the beginning nobody believes or understand what needs to be done. But I have prove to them too many times this and most of them I was right.

我的趨勢報告做得越好，ICC未來發展就會越好，對整個行業也就越有利。只有行業發展良好，我們的品牌才會受益。因此不管我們喜歡與否，我們必須在媒體以及公眾場合分享我們對趨勢的預判以及見解。因為我們是行業的一部分。

The better I do this, the better result is going to be for ICC, and is better for the industry in general. We benefit as a brand if the industry is doing well. Either we like it or not, we have to share things on the media, because we are part of the industry.

喻月明

我相信你是穿越回來的，因為你已經回答了我的下一個問題：2015年以來你每年都在分享和分析世界陶瓷發展趨勢，并把你的報告貢獻給行業。如今，ICC已不僅僅是陶瓷行業的品牌，更是陶瓷行業的潮流代表。你一開始為什么想做這樣的事?

Yu: I believe you live in the future, because you already answered my next question is that you keep sharing and analyzing the world ceramic trends and present your report since 2014. Now, ICC is not only a brand, but also a trend representative in ceramic industry.  Why did you think to do such a thing in the first place? 

漢貝托：我無法預測你的女友或者妻子是誰，也無法預測你是否會中樂透獎，亦或是誰將贏得本屆世界杯。但是陶瓷行業發展趨勢的預判對我而言并不難。我在2014年做了首場博洛尼亞趨勢觀享匯，我們并未在ICC成立之初就把我們的報告分享給行業，因為那時候我們是一家新公司，人們很難相信我們的分析。經過幾年的發展，ICC逐漸成為一家頗具名氣的公司以及市場上炙手可熱的品牌，這個時候我的分析才會更加可信，也是從那個時候開始，我開始把我的分析報告分享給我們的行業。

Humberto: I cannot tell you anything about girlfriends, your wife, or if you are going to win the lottery，or who is going to win the world cup. Doing the trends was a little bit easier for me, I have done the first sharing of CERSAIE trend in 2014. We did not share this in the first year, the opportunity is not ripe yet since at that time we were only a new company, people probably would not trust your analyzing. After few years, we are now a well-established company and a very hot brand in the market, my analyzing become more believable, then I started to share it to our industry.

我的首場分享獲得了巨大的成功，隨后中國陶瓷總部以及同行請我來年再做一場。結果第二場甚至比第一場還要成功。

once I finished my first show, we achieved a big success. CCIH and the people from ceramic industry asked me to do it again next year. And then, the second show was even better than the first one.

這樣做的好處是顯而易見的，它不僅幫助我們提前布局，而且使業界更加關注ICC，很多經銷商也知道我們在引領行業轉型。

The benefit is obvious, it helped us layout in advance, made the whole industry pay attention in ICC, made us relevant, made believe the people that we were a real important company and so on. People knew we were an important company that was helping transform our industry.

這項分享由我主導了三年，后來我讓中國陶瓷總部來承接，組織更多的行業人士加入我們，分享他們的觀點和建議。今年源于疫情，大家很難參加意大利博洛尼亞展。但他們不知道，這次我的趨勢分享報告比以往任何時候都要好。

After three years, I told CCIH to take the lead and organize it with more industry people join us to share their views and opinions. Later on many other ceramic associations do it using a similar way. This time because of the pandemic, it was very hard to go CERSAIE and share  the report at the right time because returning wasn’t fast and easy. But they do not know this was the time that I have wrote the best report than other reports I have ever written.

我們首先會把這些觀點和發現應用在ICC未來的發展當中。當然，最終我們也將在行業共享這些信息。

Obviously we use the information for ICC first, and eventually we share the information to our industry. We did not do this in October this year, but we are going to share the report in media to our industry eventually.

喻月明

您一直在不斷地分享建陶行業發展趨勢的分析和看法，為行業做出了很多貢獻。我知道你不僅在世界各地的陶瓷產區探索，還在國內的終端市場調研。您認為當下的國際市場和國內市場怎么樣?

Yu: You have been continually sharing your opinions and views for our industry, you have done lots of contribution for us. I know that you are not only traveling in the world, but also investigate the terminal showroom in the market. What do you think about international market and domestic market?

漢貝托：幾年前，一家媒體告訴我，大家在中國進口瓷磚只是因為價格合理。但我告訴他們，未來中國將是瓷磚設計的中心。中國瓷磚的質量在不斷提高，我指的不僅是產品，而且是展廳。中國瓷磚將成為世界瓷磚的榜樣。

Humberto: A few years ago, I told the media that people come and purchase in China because they have good product and a very reasonable price. But I told them that China would eventually become a design reference to the world. The quality of Chinese tiles kept improving, I and I  mean not only the product, but also the showrooms. China is going to be a reference to the world. But back then I didn’t predict that famous designers would help the ceramic companies do better showrooms and this helped a lot.

大約在5年前，我的妻子和我一起去調研，她提醒我小心一點，因為中國瓷磚品牌進步很大，設計水平也有明顯的不同。相較中國陶瓷品牌，我們過去有很強的競爭優勢，但現在差距已經越來越小。

A couple of years later, my wife who is a designer was traveling with me, and she noticed and told me that you better be careful, other different brands are improving a lot and the level of design is significantly better than five years ago. We used to have a very competitive advantage, but now the gap is narrowing.

中國陶瓷產業不斷發展壯大，如今約有30個品牌表現非常優秀。他們的展廳即便放眼全球也是一流的，這些展廳放在米蘭、羅馬、倫敦或紐約等任何一座城市都毫不遜色。

Chinese ceramic industry keeps improving, there are about 30 brands in the market that are doing very well in the market. Their show rooms are top class, you can put their   kinds of showrooms in Milan, Rome, London or New York, and they will look good.

中國有成百上千個陶瓷品牌，而意大利只有十到二十個。如果去重慶、福州或杭州等城市的建材市場，可以很容易地找到三四十個漂亮的世界級的展廳，這在以前是沒有的。如今，中國陶瓷品牌展廳的設計不可同日而語。

There are in the market hundreds or maybe thousands ceramic brands showrooms that are high end in China, but in Italy just ten or twenty have showrooms in their country. If you go to Chongqing, Fuzhou or Hangzhou to the right market, you can easily find thirty or forty beautiful and world class showrooms in the building materials malls in the country, that did not happen before. The design of the showrooms is at a completely different level.

不幸的是，沒有人看到這一點，因為外國人在過去的三年真的很難來到中國。我想一旦他們能夠再次回到中國，一定會非常驚訝。

Unfortunately, nobody has seen this, because for the foreigners that used to come to China to buy have not been able to come to China in last three years. I think they will be very surprised once they are able to get back to China again. Specially for those who used to travel to China a little bit more.

如果他們只是在佛山考察，那只能看到片面的市場，他們應該考察中國的主要城市，如上海，杭州等，以獲得更全面的認知。

And if they only arrive in Foshan, they can only see apart of story, they should travel around China, especially to the main cities like Shanghai, Hangzhou and so on.

喻月明

您的發聲非常重要，我們將在行業中傳播您的聲音。同行看到您的認同會非常振奮。因為你有國際視野，同時也更客觀。

Yu: Your voice is very important and we will spread your voice in our industry. Other entrepreneurs will be happy when they read your story. Because your view of our industry is with a more holistic view of the world. Your voice better than our bragging, and your perspective is more objective.

漢貝托：幾周前在意大利，我們一個合作了25年的意大利供應商告訴我他看了我的采訪，他說我的分享和建議非常實用。我很高興聽到這個消息，我認為我做了一件正確的事。

Humberto：Before a few weeks ago, I was a little surprised when I was in Italy during CERSAIE with one of our suppliers who worked with us more than 25 years ago. He told me he read and saw my video interview and the proposal and that was very useful and interesting for them. I was very happy to hear that, I feel that I did the right thing. I didn’t realize that interview was going to have such a big exposure.

04.

明年不容樂觀

但樂觀的時代終將到來

喻月明

你的演講、展示和趨勢分享使得你在我們行業非常出名。穿越者，請告訴我你對明年的趨勢的預判?

Yu: You are very famous in our industry because of your show, presentation and trends sharing. The man who lives in the future, What do you expect for the trends next year?

漢貝托：坦白說，明年不容樂觀。

Humberto: to be honest, it is not going to be very good next year, it is going to be very challenging. Probably it will get worse before it gets better.

喻月明

我希望你能保持信心。

Yu: I wish you could keep confidence.

漢貝托：刨去經濟、房地產、重建、貨幣、匯率、運輸等其他任何宏觀因素，明年都將是極具挑戰性的一年。對于2022年而言，我們都猜到了開頭，卻未曾想到結局。

Humberto: Next year will be very challenging, remove complex macro factors like economy, real-estate, reconstruct, currency, exchange rate, transportation and any other things. I believe we all were wrong with the predictions of 2022, we knew it was going to be difficult year but not this kind of difficult and bad.

基于此，我對2023年的預期并不樂觀。有人說明年會好起來。但我卻不贊同，我認為我們的行業在觸底反彈之前還有一段谷底時間要走。這就像一個循環的波浪，我不確定我們是否已經觸底，但那一刻將會到來，我希望不要讓我們等待太久，過程也不要過于糟糕。

based on that, the expectation for 2023 is not very good and I can tell you that upfront. Somebody said that it is going to be better next year. I said that probably not, because I believe that our industry is going to keep going in the wrong direction for a while before it starts going in the right direction. It is like a wave of cycle, I am not sure we already touched the bottom or not, but that moment will come, and from there, it will not go down anymore and from the bottom there is only one way to go and it will start getting better. I hope it would not be last too long and NOT much more LOWER ANYMORE.

我記得2008年的時候，美國的市場簡直糟糕透頂。我們可以查一下行業的數據，它用了十年才恢復到同樣的水平。中國目下的困境可能不像當時的美國那么糟糕，但明年我們仍將面臨挑戰。我們的首要任務是生存下來，行業可能會在兩三年后觸底，隨后才會復蘇并重新增長。

I remember that in 2008 in USA, the market was in terrible shape, It went down to a terribly low number. We can check the figures of our industry, it lasted ten years to recover to the same level. China's woes may not be as bad as that time in USA, but there are still challenging for us next year. I hopeful the best, our first priority is to survive, we might touch the bottom after two or three years, we are going to recovery and climbing up again.

喻月明

你對這樣挑戰有什么應對策略?

Yu: What are your plans for this challenge?

漢貝托：最重要的是我們應當清楚的認識自己，在公司的財務狀況上我們需要付出120%以上的專注，并做好每一個重要的細節。這些細節不僅僅體現在財務方面，還有創新、投資、營銷等方面。

Humberto: The most important is that you should know what kind of ground or floor you are walking on, and we need to put 120% attention on our financial situation and doing everything with significant diligence and analysis. Not only about the financial, but also the innovation, investment, marketing and so on, actually… everything!

當2020年疫情襲擊我們的時候，大多數品牌在第一季度表現很糟糕，我們也損失了很多錢。但我們在第二季度以非常強勁快速的力量反彈，我們可能是當時表現最好的陶瓷公司之一。2020年全年我們的表現并不差，從2020年到2021年，我們每個月都達到了預期的目標，銷售額保持穩步增長。

When the pandemic hit us in 2020, the first quarter was horrible for most brands in their history, everything was closed and we lost a lot of money, but we bounced back the second semester of the 2020 year strongly and with fast power, the industry in general and us along with them. Probably we were the one of the best performing ceramic companies at that time because of our size to get out of the hole. And we recovered from the big loss of the first quarter and ended having a decent 2020 year and we were glad it was over. The recovery kept improving in the first semester of 2021, we reached our targets every month for 18 consecutive months, and our sales increased placidly since June 2020.

喻月明

市場在2021年8月開始下行。

Yu: The market was going down since August 2021.

漢貝托：沒錯，在這段困難時期，墨西哥總部問我，你確定我們要投資那么多錢來改造所有的ICC展廳嗎?

Humberto: Exactly, but it was interesting that during this difficult time, even our boss in Mexico question and asked me: Hey Humberto, are you sure we should invest the kind of money in remodeling and upgrading all ICC stores?

我的回答是我們別無選擇，我們必須這么做，當市場復蘇的時候，我們可以在競爭中處于更有利的位置。因此我們將ICC門店改造為ICC Global門店。同時，2019年我們引進了ABK品牌的原裝進口系列，它在市場上獲得了歡迎并且卓有成效。2020年我們改造了一半的終端門店，2021年我們又改造了另一半。回過頭看，2021年對我們而言發展的也還不錯。

I said that we did not have another choice, we have to do it and expect for the market to do better, we could be in a much, more better position than the competition when it gets better. So, we remodeled the ICC stores to ICC Global stores. And in 2019 we imported ABK products from Italy, the global collection products and we had to do something with them, the tiles and the investment in inventory. Eventually It worked, because in 2020 we remodeled half of our stores, and 2021 we remodel most of the other half of stores, and 2021 was a very good year for us.

2022年對任何人來說都不太友好。但對我們而言，2022年沒有那么糟糕，我們沒賺錢，也沒有虧損，只是保持平衡。我們應當準備好生活在一個充滿挑戰的時代，要格外小心我們所做的每一項決策，不要做愚蠢的決定。

2022 has been not good year for anyone. But for us, it has not been as bad as it has been for most. We did not win or lose, we are glad it is almost over and just keep the balance. Be ready to live in a challenging time, and be careful with everything you do, do not take foolish decisions.

最終希望盡快在2024年，2025年或2026年，我們將進入一個嶄新局面，屆時ICC將處于一個有利的位置，因為我們在這個艱難的時期做了正確的布局。

Eventually I hope sooner than later maybe 2024, 2025 or 2026, we all will be on a different situation, our company is going to be a right position because we did the right layout in this tough time.